Navigating Rejection and Building Resilience

In this episode, Dr. Leslie Becker Phelps discusses her book "Bouncing Back from Rejection" and shares valuable insights on how to become resilient in connecting with and understanding others as well as ourselves. 

Join us as we dive deep into the topic and explore the importance of compassionate self-awareness. Whether you're struggling with rejection or want to help young people in your life navigate through it, this episode offers practical tools and advice. 

Transcript

Dr Becker-Phelps Interview - Heather's intro-1: 0:00

Welcome to the lead with levity podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Heather Walker, and I am so glad that we are wrapping up 2023. This has been an interesting year, an amazing year, a wild year. And you know what? I think we've learned a lot this year. So We've learned about how to face our fears this year, how to reframe and think about things in a different way so that, so that we can enjoy life so that we can face our challenges. We've also learned how to change our behavior, right? To, to take a look at some of those things in our lives that are holding us back, things that we do to ourselves, things that we do to our, to others and people around us that can sometimes hold us back, that can sometimes keep us from achieving all of the wonderful things that we want to achieve, from having the kind of impact that we want to have, from enjoying Life from enjoying the people around us. And so I'm glad that we're wrapping up this series this year and I think that the the topic for today is an appropriate Very appropriate topic believe it or not. I know it's a holiday For some I know it's a holiday and you're probably like what? Why are we talking about? rejection on a holiday You know what? A lot of people deal with this. Matter of fact, let me change that. We all deal with rejection at some point in time. It might be for you, dealing with rejection at 2 p. m. On Monday, 8 a. m. On Tuesday, 12 p. m. On Wednesday. It's not something that you can always Sort of predict when it's going to happen or when you're going to see something and Feel like you know what I don't I don't like what just happened And I I don't feel right about what just happened, and I feel disrespected. I feel left behind. I feel left out Right so you know I think it's appropriate and it's appropriate time for us to talk about this so if you've ever been in a situation where you felt like I'm avoiding people, avoiding people, because at least if I stay away from people, they don't have the ability and the power to to Hurt me or if you've ever been in a situation where you felt like you were walking on eggshells Around someone, you know because you are worried that if you said Something to them if you spoke your truth They they wouldn't want to talk to you anymore If you are ever in a meeting and you decided not to speak up you decided not to take an opportunity if you decided not to join a A group not to participate because you were worried about being left out. You're worried about how others were going to respond to you. If you are worried about being yourself, then you kind of know what I'm talking about here. So Today's guest is an expert in the field of rejection, in the concept of rejection. And she's worked on helping to, to think about how can we How can we take these moments, these experiences and not run from them, but face them and, and find ways to, to address them and, and cope with, with what our experiences are so that we can sort of respond differently in the future? That's what, what we're going to talk about today. She, she spent a lot of time on this y'all. So today's guest is Dr. Leslie Becker Phelps. She is a renowned psychologist and author. She has written for WebMD for psychology today. She wrote Insecure in Love and also Bouncing Back from Rejection. You know, so this is something that Dr. Becker Phelps is very passionate about, and we're going to go through not just what are some of the common challenges that people face when it comes to rejection and rejection. And how they think about it, how they respond to it, but also some solutions and some strategies, some sort of an action plan for you, if you will, so that when, not if, but when you get to those points where you feel like the other, right? When you feel like you're not included. You're not in the room when it happens. You're not a part of the group. Your friends don't want to play with you. How do you handle that? And how do you handle that in a way that is graceful, in a way that is honoring to how you feel? and supports you so that you can be stronger in the future if you ever face anything like that again. So I encourage you to stick around, stay tuned, share this with a loved one, leave a review, and subscribe to this podcast because this episode is for you.

Track 3: 5:56

if you can understand, someone's actions when you understand what's happening in their mental states, their thoughts, their feelings, their fears, their anxieties, whatever's going on in them. If you can get that both in your mind and in your heart, then you are open to being able to empathize. To have compassion for them, to offer forgiveness. There's all these very healing, positive experiences. You can mentalize yourself, you can mentalize others. So with STEAM, what you're doing is you're taking sensations, thoughts, emotions, actions. And with the M, you're reflecting on all of those and really understanding yourself better, the situation better. when it comes to relationships. I suggest you steam with another person, mentalizing them to the best that you can, because that helps you interact better. But this is bringing this awareness to the surface and then you can work with it.

Track 1: 7:18

Welcome back to the Lead with Levity podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Heather Walker, and I have the pleasure today of speaking to a very esteemed guest, Dr. Leslie Becker Phelps. Dr. Becker Phelps has dedicated her, her career, really, To helping people understand themselves helping them understand what they need to do to become emotionally and psychologically healthy Which is near and dear to my heart as you know And she's written for psychology today. She actually has a blog called making change So I encourage you to check that out. She's also written a And she's written some books as well that are very, very good. And we're going to talk about one of them in particular today, y'all, because I'm here to help you out. This book that we are going to talk about today and the experiences that we're going to talk about today are all around how can you become resilient when it comes to how you connect with and understand and So, Leslie Becker Phelps has written a book called Bouncing Back from Rejection. And we're going to dive all the way into that today, into the deep end. So without further ado, I'd like to welcome you, Dr. Becker Phelps. How are you today?

Track 3: 8:44

I am doing great. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

Track 1: 8:50

Me too. Me too. And I'm, I'm really curious about this topic. I think rejection is something that, that people deal with. It's a natural part of the human experience, right? I almost feel like, you know, it would be wonderful if you could go through life without ever experiencing rejection or at least recognizing that you've been rejected. But, maybe, maybe you can let us know. It, This is natural, right? Everyone goes through rejection at some point in time, correct?

Track 3: 9:21

Correct. Absolutely. You know, on one hand I think we all would love to go through life without any adversity, but the truth is, as most of us know, you know, you don't grow without adversity. Right. It, it teaches us things, so we don't, while we don't wish it, we can certainly grow from it and use it in, in positive ways.

Track 1: 9:40

Yeah, yeah, it is that why you decided to write this book, Bouncing Back from Rejection?

Track 3: 9:48

know, it is. It's the reason I wrote the book is I have focused a lot on what I would call compassionate self awareness. So this idea that we have to get to know ourselves really well in order to lead, lead a full healthy life. And I call it, compassionate self awareness because you could learn your all about yourself and do it in a very critical way. And that's probably not going to lead to much happiness. Or fulfillment. So with compassion and self awareness, you can do that. People often struggle with insecurity. And so as I focused on that and help people develop this greater compassionate self awareness, to counter that, what I would call insecure attachment, that's helped them feel stronger. And a big thing that people who feel insecure experience is a struggle with rejection. So this is kind of another avenue. Of that, that same, area of concern.

Track 1: 10:43

Mmm, I'd like to normalize this concept of being insecure or feeling insecure experiencing insecurity because I know as, as, as a psychologist, as a, as a psychology professional, I can look at that word and say, okay, this makes sense why someone might feel this way at this point in time. I can take a step back from it and all of that, but I also recognize outside of this bubble that we're in. The word insecure is oftentimes used to label people as. As, as crazy as, as something very, very wrong with them. It can be a very hard, harsh label that's attached to someone. And so I'm wondering, you know. Can, can we, can we kind of double click into this concept of insecurity? Why might someone feel insecure and, and where does that come from? You talked a little bit about attachment. Can we go, can we take it a step back? Can we peel back the layer of that? Mm,

Track 3: 11:57

And just to touch on, you know, where you're starting with, where, you know, people might feel like, oh, it's a terrible label. It's because you're acknowledging like a vulnerability and unf I think that's always probably been a problem, but especially in our like Facebook world when you're only supposed to like everything's supposed to be great, it's hard for us to acknowledge our But the truth is, being human means we have weaknesses, we make mistakes, we have difficulties, we have vulnerabilities. That's not a bad thing. That's a human thing. So I just want to put it in that context. And I think part of what happens for people is when they view it as a bad thing, then they can't acknowledge their own experience. And if you can't acknowledge your own experience, then you're in trouble because you cannot show up in the world in an authentic way. Not only that, just even within yourself, you can't show up. Like, you feel like somehow you're lesser than or you're flawed or something wrong with you just for having such vulnerabilities. But in fact, the truth is, we all have them. And it helps to really acknowledge that, so I don't, broadly speaking, that speaks to the, the insecurity.

Track 1: 13:04

yeah. And, what's interesting about that too is there are often reasons, and that's what I'm trying to get at too, there are often reasons for that feeling of insecurity, you know, if you're at work and you're sitting in a meeting and you decide to put yourself out there, you're, you're, you're speaking your mind, you're sharing your truth, you're pointing out that, hey, I have another idea or, hey, I think there might be a flaw in the logic here. You're basically taking a risk, and you don't necessarily know how that message is going to be received, if others are going to accept it, if they're going to applaud it, or if they're going to reject it, or if you're now going to be on the outside. I spoke to someone just this week. This week about something very similar, where they were in a meeting and they asked their supervisor, Can you explain this? And the supervisor ignored, in, in a group setting, ignored the question, kept talking. And that person shut down, started crying. And the supervisor didn't even, didn't recognize that maybe this is a good time to stop, pause and, and reset. They continued to talk while that person was crying in the meeting. And so, yeah, it's, it's pretty horrible, right? You'd think that that doesn't, that doesn't happen in modern day. Yes, it still happens. But I think that that's, it's one of those things where you maybe in your head, you're thinking, I don't want to speak up because something like this could happen. What if, what if something happens? And sometimes bad things do happen. Sometimes rejection can be very real. and that's why I'm so excited about your book because it, it helps us wrap our minds around. All right, now it's happened. What you feared is a reality. Now, how do we move forward?

Track 3: 15:13

Or, you know, some of what I talk about in Bouncing Back from Rejection is that we all carry a lens within ourselves. even if somebody else looking at the situation would be like, oh, that was no big deal. If you experience it as a big rejection, then you are having to deal with a big rejection.

Track 1: 15:28

That's

Track 3: 15:29

it's a very, it's a very subjective experience, and I think it's important for us to recognize our own subjectivity and acknowledge validate that that that is a very real experience. Rather than what I see a lot of is people putting themselves down. Well, what's wrong with me that I'm afraid to speak up? Oh, this is like And they start beating themselves up as if mustering the courage wasn't hard enough. They then have to fight through their own self condemnation.

Track 1: 15:56

Yes. Yes. Their own inner critic. Yeah. So, how can we calm down that inner critic?

Track 3: 16:06

question. So playing off of what I just said, I think it's important to know where this is coming from, right? So if you tend to be someone who, you know, you know, your mind, you're in this meeting,

Track 1: 16:20

hmm. Mm. Mm.

Track 3: 16:23

afraid to speak up. You can, you can look around and say, what's causing my fear of rejection? What's, you know, what's causing this. And this is where the self awareness comes in. You can think, well, you know what? I tend to be great. I've never had trouble asking in this environment or that environment. There's something happening here. And then you'd be like, Oh, okay. This is a response to this boss. Now you can start to work through how you want to deal with it. As opposed to, another answer might be gosh, I used to be okay. But in my last job, my boss was so awful and would really come down on people ever since then. I've been anxious. That could be another reason or when I was growing up there were these expectations or those expectations and so then I was always afraid I was caught up in anxiety about doing anything and I'm carrying that forward and that's what's happened. It's really important to know what's going on for you in order to be able to address. Getting through the situation, dealing with the fear of rejection, learning to bounce back from it.

Track 1: 17:34

So what I'm hearing is, just putting some extra language on this is, is sort of pinpointing the origin story of your rejection, right? And your relationship with rejection. Where does, where did that start? And, you may not be able to pinpoint it in the middle of that meeting, at some point when you have time and you can sit back and reflect and you don't feel like, You're in fight or flight mode. It can take some time to really think about, Okay, did this happen recently? Or is this something that I've been living with and walking with? Has this been a part of my journey for a really long time?

Track 3: 18:11

That opens up different ways of coping. So one, one way of coping is true. No matter where it came from. Can you reference fight or flight? If your body. Is all tensed up and ready for conflict. First thing you want to do is be able to calm your body down because the truth is, and I know that you know this, that if we are afraid and we are in fight or flight mode, our brains are not working very well in terms of the thinking. The thinking part of our

Track 1: 18:38

are not.

Track 3: 18:40

goes dim when the emotional part of our brain lights up. So we've got to calm the lit up brain, the emotional brain. Once you calm that, then you can think more clearly and work your way through. There's a lot of ways to do that. One of the simplest ways that you hear a lot about is breathing. So, we can easily do a whole podcast just on the breathing part. one simple one is. Just pay attention to your breathing in and breathing out like just, you don't even have to change what you're doing just like inhale, exhale and follow it. That's calming. another thing you might do is practice learning to breathe from your diaphragm. So if you put your hands on your belly, and when you breathe in, you feel your, your belly in inflate like a balloon and when you exhale it deflates, you can do that nobody has to know that you're doing it. But you will feel a common, or just a big sigh, which you may not want to do in a meeting, people could see that, but in general life, if you take a big sigh, nobody cares, and if you just do it now as you're listening to us, kind of like, You can feel your body calm. That's a first step. No matter where the fear of rejection is coming from. Then the next step is you want to look around and say, what's happening now? That's causing the anxiety or the fear. And if you see something that's happening now, like, oh, this particular boss tends to be very critical or I don't trust his colleague or whatever. Then you need to problem solve. How do I deal with that? Very real threat. Like, what's the best strategy?

Track 1: 20:09

Mm

Track 3: 20:09

So I think that would be. The next step. And if you're bringing it in from your childhood or from long ago, you're certainly not taking care of it in that moment, but I would suggest, and we can talk more about the stepping back later in your own mind and working that through. A lot of times people don't. They're like, Oh, I got through that situation. They don't think about it until they're in the next situation.

Track 1: 20:29

Right, and then it's like, ah, I always find myself here and I'm back at it again And you know, then that negative self talk starts kicking up again

Track 3: 20:38

Exactly.

Track 1: 20:39

So I'm wondering, especially with this, this, idea of maybe some, a lot of this sometimes can happen when we're young and, and our young selves come up with theories about why things are happening. And then we carry those theories with us. How do we change that story? Especially when it's A story that we've carried with us for a really long time. How do, how do we start to change that narrative?

Track 3: 21:08

First thing you have to do is get to know the narrative. When you're at work, whatever your job is, if there are projects to be done and you have to solve a problem, what's the first thing you do to solve the problem? You're like, Oh, I got to get to know what the problem is or I'm never going to solve it. So we got to solve, we got to figure that out. What's the problem? And that means developing greater self awareness. What's happening for me, what's happening to me. and there's a lot of levels of self awareness. So I talk, I talk about steam. It's a, it's for me, a great acronym for, the different domains of self awareness and how we can develop that. So it's,

Track 1: 21:43

yeah, let's, let's dive into STEAM. Ha ha ha

Track 3: 21:47

do that. and I'll just run through it and then we can talk about each one. So S is for sensations. What do you sense in your body? Now, many of us have a lot of trouble, just knowing, like, you know, my chest is tight, or, I have had people in my sessions, I'm like, what do you notice? They say nothing. I'm like, do you notice that you have a tear rolling down your cheek? And they'll touch their cheek and go, oh, I didn't realize it. Like, getting to know your body can tell you a lot of information.

Track 1: 22:15

Yes, that reminds me. I've seen that also with cuts where you'll get a cut or something and not know for half a day until someone points something like that out. Yeah. Wow.

Track 3: 22:29

so much for us emotionally stems from what our bodies are experiencing, and we can come back to that. So that's sensations. T is for thoughts. It's like, what are your thoughts? And what are your thoughts about your thoughts? Right? So reflecting on them. E is for emotions. So, you know, what are your emotions? What are your emotions about your emotions again? A is for actions. What are your actions or reactions? What are the things you're doing in the world? And M is for mentalizing. Now this is a jargony, clunky word, and I apologize for it, but I did not invent it. I'm just using it. Basically all that means is if you can understand, someone's actions when you understand what's happening in their mental states, their thoughts, their feelings, their fears, their anxieties, whatever's going on in them. If you can get that both in your mind and in your heart, then you are open to being able to empathize. To have compassion for them, to offer forgiveness. There's all these very healing, positive experiences. You can mentalize yourself, you can mentalize others. So with STEAM, what you're doing is you're taking sensations, thoughts, emotions, actions. And with the M, you're reflecting on all of those and really understanding yourself better, the situation better. when it comes to relationships. I suggest you steam with another person, mentalizing them to the best that you can, because that helps you interact better. But this is bringing this awareness to the surface and then you can work with it. And I'll give you an example. It's a personal one, not a, um, it's somebody's personal life, not their business life, but it's a great example. I was talking with one woman who, She would tell me that she, she had, she used to interact with friends a lot, but she stopped answering phone calls. She wouldn't return texts, anything like that. And she said, well, I just must not want to have friends anymore. And so we started to explore the self awareness and what she became aware of was she was afraid people would be critical of her. They would be rejecting of her. And it was actually her solution, unconscious as it was. was, well, I'm not going to get rejected. I'm not going to be criticized because I'm just not going to respond.

Track 1: 24:47

Mm

Track 3: 24:47

And she realized she had that anxiety and that fear. And then we were able to talk about, well, when this person reaches out, what do you think the likelihood is? Oh no, they're always supportive. And so we could start to untangle that fear and help her get connected back in. In her relationships, and then that really had a lot of implications for taking care of life.

Track 1: 25:08

Yes, yes. So, as you were talking, I, I actually was going to ask you about this idea of is some rejection, avoidable, and, and even, even the question makes me realize that there's this, assumption that you can control. There's something that you can control it. You know what I'm saying? Like, which is not yeah

Track 3: 25:37

an assumption that it's an objective thing, like, oh, that's a rejection, that's a rejection, that's not a rejection. But the truth is, you may experience rejection in a situation where I wouldn't, I just wouldn't perceive it that way, I wouldn't have that reaction. So it's, it's, there are events, but it's also how people perceive the events.

Track 1: 25:58

Mm hmm. What I absolutely love about what you just said is that That gives us the ability it it gives us the ability to stop feeling like victims, right? It gives you some of your power back if you're able to If you know that there is another way of seeing this event, there's another way of responding to what just happened, some people would respond to this in a completely different way. So how can we bridge that? And, and that's where I actually get kind of excited about the concept of reframing. And I'd love to maybe, I don't know, maybe spend a little bit of time. Yes, yes. Yes.

Track 3: 26:42

So what you're, what you're getting at clearly is resilience, right? People being able to bounce back to be resilient. And a lot of times it's context. So when I decided I wanted to write a book. And I knew what I wanted to write it about. I put together my proposal, you know, looked up how you do it, and started sending, my proposals to literary agents. I was going to find myself a literary agent. And guess what happened?

Track 1: 27:06

Rejection. Rejection. Rejection.

Track 3: 27:08

rejection. And so You know, I, I needed to think about it is when I send these requests out more likely than not, they're going to be rejected. I'm going to get like, that's just gonna happen. So rather than taking it as a personal, like, oh my gosh, this isn't good enough. Oh, I did such a horrible thing. I was like, okay, well, I expected that that's, it didn't feel good, but it wasn't two things. One, it was a situation where I knew chances are there was going to be rejections. And secondly, and this is a big one for your listeners. You're more than any particular experience. So you know what I am? So I am more of a person than just the proposal I wrote or even my writing or even like any part of my life. So if something doesn't go well or I get a rejection, it's really important to be able to recognize, well, I am bigger than that thing. And so I can still feel strong through it. Doesn't mean I'm not upset. Resilience doesn't mean you don't get upset or you're just strong or everything, but it's like you can take the hit and you can still be okay. And that has to do with context. It has to do with reframing. It has to do with if you can have that compassionate self awareness, like, oh, well, that hurts so I can understand. Like, okay, yeah, this would be hurtful for anybody. It doesn't have to be devastating. But it's okay that it hurts. And that's where people's self criticism often comes in. They're like, oh, I got hurt by that. What's my problem that I really care about what other people think? And when I have those conversations with people, I'm like, well, yeah, you care what other people think. We're human. And humans We're social creatures and you want to care. Imagine your life if you didn't care what other people thought it would be a pretty empty life. It's

Track 1: 28:48

Mm. Yes. There, there are other books that teach. The subtle art of not, I'm not going to say the actual phrase, but not caring about what other people think, but you know, it,

Track 3: 29:03

how you

Track 1: 29:04

yes, yes. And, and finding a way to realistically kind of navigate through all of these different situations. So that's where I believe your, your STEAM model comes into play, right? Where we start to think about, okay, this happened. Let me center myself and figure out where am I right now so, so I know what I need, where do I go from here? so you mentioned something about sensations and, and really taking time to, to figure out what is your body feeling at this point in time. Now, it sounds like when you're doing your work, cause, cause you've got to practice and so you're seeing people all the time. What trends are you seeing? Are, are, are we in a crisis right now when it comes to being sensitive to our own selves and, and what we're thinking and what we're feeling and what we're experiencing? Or do you feel like people are doing a pretty good job of that right now? That might be an unfair question.

Track 3: 30:01

I think people are having a lot of experiences. I think we don't always know how to identify them and then put them in context. It feels and you have all this stuff coming at you and what can happen is they all meld into one thing and I say it's kind of like dropping a boulder on your chest. You're supposed to push that boulder off and be able to get up and it doesn't work. So with the steam, I was helping people break it down and then even that to break it smaller. Like if you're just talking about, let's say the emotions. You can have so many emotions, but if you realize, oh, I feel sad and hurt and angry and afraid and you start labeling them, then It doesn't feel it's funny. It doesn't feel as big because you can look at each one separately

Track 1: 30:44

Mm hmm.

Track 3: 30:45

and that ties in coming back to the sensations is that all of that comes from our bodies. I mean, neuroscientists, I'm sure you know, exploding with activity around how our https: otter. ai Central are central to our experiences. And this idea of this feeling threat is huge. When people feel threat, there's bodies respond in particular ways. And that directs. Our emotions, our thoughts, how we react, and so the more we can understand that, the more we can tap in. So when I have people, sometimes they don't even know what they're feeling. They don't know what's going on. Like, they're just upset. I say, okay, let's pause a second. Just pay attention to your body. Sometimes I'll walk them through their body. I'll like pay attention to the top of your head. Your face, your neck, your chest, and we just go slowly through it, and then they start to realize, Oh, yeah, I guess I first of all say I don't feel anything. And then I'll walk them through and they say, Well, I guess my chest is a little tight. Okay, let's stay with that well I feel some tightness in my neck. Okay. And now they start to realize it and we might say, Well, what emotions seem to kind of go along with or come from those sensations and then all of a sudden they might realize, Oh, I'm actually feeling some anxiety or some fear, or all of a sudden they realize that the tension in the chest, maybe it drops into their bellies and they feel sad. So sometimes it's a portal to helping us better understand. Our own experiences

Track 1: 32:29

Yeah.

Track 3: 32:30

self awareness piece.

Track 1: 32:32

Mm hmm. Definitely. Definitely. One thing that, that really helped, a couple of concepts that helped me is one that we all tend to carry You can carry stress in different parts of your body, right? So, being mindful of that. And, and what you're saying is, is taking the time to figure out where, where am I carrying that stress right now? Where am I experiencing this discomfort, this dis ease, if you will. And then also, I think, you know, just to free people up to understand that Sometimes you can go from feeling completely frustrated, anxious, upset, shame, to being happy, but the truth of the matter is if you can just go from feeling really bad to, to just bad that's a good thing, sometimes we want to jump from feeling very, very bad to very, very good in one step. And that isn't always the most realistic way to see it either.

Track 3: 33:40

to that that sometimes it's okay to feel distressed. People are afraid of feeling hurt or sad. And the more you can be okay with where you can befriend your emotions, the more you can allow for them. And that means you get signals from within you about what's going on for you. And it's the difference between feeling good and right. I tell people that, you know, we want to help you to have an experience that feels right, but it may not feel good. So, you know, if somebody dies, it's hopefully, it's going to feel right that you're sad. That doesn't feel good, but it feels right because it fits you've had a loss. And the more you could be open to it, then you let your body process what it needs to process, which includes your mind processing what it needs to process. And that helps you move through the difficulties. And that is part of resilience too. If it's not okay to be sad when someone's died, you become like tense around it. And now your body is in distress because it's trying to prevent itself from having the experience it's having. And it will cause problems. It will backfire.

Track 1: 34:50

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So, so we've got these sensations, we've got these emotions, we have the thoughts that I think we're all very familiar with. Some of those thoughts that can kind of creep up. and, and then we also started to touch on some other elements of the model as well, like, actions and reactions.

Track 3: 35:13

Can I back up one second? Then we can go to that. That'd be all

Track 1: 35:16

to, I would love to back up. Go ahead.

Track 3: 35:18

I want to back up because people so often confuse thoughts and emotions and we, and I don't know if it's a cultural thing. It'll be interesting to see if there's research or do research, but you ask how somebody is feeling and they'll say, I think I'm doing okay. Or some version of that. And I'll say, well, that's a great thought. But what are your emotions? And we forget, I think, it seems like it might be a cultural thing, that we want to focus on the way we think about it. And you're missing, if that's what you're doing, you are missing what's happening for you. And there's all this untapped treasure inside, because you're busy covering up, you don't even realize you're covering it up, that you're not going to the emotions. And that often connects with people's discomfort with their emotions. So I would just For people who are listening to think about when you say how you're feeling to someone else or yourself. It's a question like, wow, is that an emotion or is that a thought? And I have a list of emotions. I should really count it up. There's a lot of emotions on this list. I haven't been subcategories that you could find them all over the web on my website. There's a, there's a. free list of emotions tied to my books. How helpful it is sometimes to just pause and look through the list and be like, what do you feel? And it really is amazing how much people can learn from seeing that there, that there are more emotions than they realized. So I just want to throw that out there. Because that could be an a ha for a lot of people.

Track 1: 36:53

oh yeah. Because it's not just I'm sad, angry, happy, and afraid, right? We can double click into each of those. Yes, yes. So.

Track 3: 37:05

have some actions you were

Track 1: 37:07

Yes, I was just going to ask about actions because, people, when they think they're being rejected, they will feel something and then they will act out of that. And those actions are sometimes productive, sometimes not so productive. What have you seen in terms of, of some of the actions that are more productive versus less? Like, do you have any, any insight there? Mm. Mm

Track 3: 37:39

I would also say sometimes people feel rejected and then think they're rejected. Sometimes they think they're rejected and feel it, but sometimes it's so deeply burdened, it's In them, that the thoughts follow the feelings and that's important

Track 1: 37:52

Yeah.

Track 3: 37:54

if you realize that you acted a particular way and you follow it back and then you realize, well, I don't actually think the person was rejecting me, but I felt rejected. That is important information for you. That's telling you, you are bringing something into the situation that's not there, whereas go back and then you realize, you know what, not only am I feeling rejected. But the person was a real jerk to me. That gives you information. So, it is helpful when your actions are, fit with what's going on, or what's where the source of the rejection is. Again, if you're bringing in, if, if you're your boss says hey, you know, hey, good morning and walks off and then you're like, oh, gosh, they didn't say anything about the project I handed in yesterday. Oh, they must think I'm horrible. Now you're off and running. If you, and then maybe you, start talking to coworkers. Now you bad mouth them. Now you're starting to cause a problem. We're nonexistent

Track 1: 38:52

based on all of these assumptions,

Track 3: 38:54

all this stuff, right?

Track 1: 38:56

Mm hmm.

Track 3: 38:57

So the actions it's most helpful when you can be aware of where are your inner reactions coming from. And then how helpful is the, the outer action going to be. So even if you know where it's coming from, there are certain things you can do that'll be problematic and certain things not problematic. In the situation I just laid out, you might realize that, that you were bringing, bringing the rejection in from elsewhere. You can take a breath. You can remind yourself, you know, he was just saying good morning or she was just saying good morning. That doesn't have to mean all the things I was just thinking. And when you can do that, this is, I talk with people about separating thoughts from emotional thoughts. So your emotional thought is, ooh, that was a big rejection. Like, it just feels, all the thoughts, you're having thoughts that they rejected you, but they're all emotional. And then when you want to ask yourself is, okay, if I were to step back, if I were to look objectively, what do I really think? Oh, well, I think The boss was just saying good morning and it may or may not have had anything to do with what's gone on. That doesn't mean you don't still feel rejected, but when you can separate those things, you can at least begin to question it and it doesn't feel as strong and it doesn't feel as much of a truth.

Track 1: 40:15

hmm.

Track 3: 40:16

You can make it, and the more practiced you are, the more it becomes just a hypothesis and less strong.

Track 1: 40:22

Mm hmm. do we continue to reduce that feeling, especially when we know that Maybe we made the wrong assumption and we figure out. Oh, okay. Yeah They it's not that they haven't called me For three months because they don't like me anymore. It's because they've got a lot going on in their lives another example. Um, I hear all the time. And, and then you find out, oh, okay, something really happened in this person's life and it has nothing to do with me, but I still kind of feel some kind of way about it. How can we start to reduce those feelings? Is it through the meditation? Is it, you know, what Dr. Dr. Dr. Leslie Baker felt help us out here. Cause there are levels to this.

Track 3: 41:11

There are levels to this. I think, we want to come back to respecting the fact that we're human.

Track 1: 41:16

Mm hmm.

Track 3: 41:16

We are creatures on this earth. We are wired particular ways. And when we've had certain experiences, we have certain reactions. If you can understand that, acknowledge that, have respect for that, hopefully that allows you to be less self critical. You can see it. And then understand that the change means you need to rewire your brain is all this stuff about neuroscience and neuroplasticity. It's not like you can just, we want to think like, oh, now that I see it, I'll be different. And then you get over yourself that you haven't changed because you already know. This isn't just about knowing. This is about learning. Like, um, if you wanted to learn to drive a stick shift or ride a bicycle or anything like that, it's not like if somebody stood next to you and say, okay, you do this, this, this, and this, and now you're going to go and you're going to do it as if like, oh, now I should be an expert. No, it takes time. You, you have to learn it. So you practice it. And that's where my steam comes in. You take the time to practice. What are my sensations? What are my emotions? What are my actions? What am I thinking? You don't have to do it in that order, by the way, that's just. So tonight it spells out a word, which is great, but then it comes in different orders. But the more you are aware of yourself, then you're creating, in part, you're creating a space between the, the event and you're reaction so that you're becoming responsive as opposed to reactive. And then you practice this stuff. You practice thinking about, oh, I can recognize I'm feeling hurt and rejected. Oh, I can recognize that that goes with all of these assumptions that I have, huh? I can see that these are assumptions. They're not reality and you keep practicing being self aware with time you will, have more self awareness. You have more empathy. I talk about compassionate self awareness. When things go wrong, you have More compassion that goes with the self awareness and what that does is it enables you to keep coming back. Like, okay, it's okay. You become your own support, right? It's okay. I made a mistake. I understand. Here's what's a good next step for me. And you can walk yourself through what you need to do because you have compassion as opposed to beating yourself up because that's what a lot of people think they need to do to make changes.

Track 1: 43:36

Mm.

Track 3: 43:37

And that when you beat yourself up to make change. Although sometimes it works that you can make the changes, what always goes with that, and I can say always, which we don't like to do usually, if you get someplace because you beat yourself up, I promise you, you will not feel good about yourself in some way. Because you've internalized the beating up. So, okay, you've accomplished this or that, but you don't feel good about it. So, that's not really a success in my mind.

Track 1: 44:01

There's some shame attached to that. Yeah. So we've been talking about, you know, what happens when an event happens or, or something like that. And you're responding to these, these moments of feeling rejected, as we wrap up 2023, and I'm so glad that this is one of the last episodes that we have this year, because I think this is a great time of year to reflect. And a lot of people are in reflection mode, thinking about, All the things that happened this year and all of the wonderful ways they're going to show up differently in 2024, right? What recommendations do you have to someone who is, is kind of thinking about, you know, all right, this is what I'd like to do differently in 2024. Is there a, maybe three things that you can recommend from a macro level? Someone who's, who's thinking about how they've responded to, to others and rejection in the past and then, you know, going forward how they want to show up differently. Mm

Track 3: 45:07

the big thing is recognize where you are now and whether it's the example you're giving of what people want or a particular behavior change or a move in your career or whatever it is, relationship. So often people say, okay, this is what I want. So that's what I'm going to do. And what you forget that you're looking at the finish line and you're saying, well, I'm just going to cross the finish line. That doesn't help you now. So you have to focus on where you are now. That's great. You certainly want a finish line. You want to know, oh, I want to orient myself in this direction. But understand it's a direction. Then you come back to where am I now? And you can use that STEAM model to really know where you are. You have respect for where you are. And then you can say, What can I do now? That can, that can be a step forward, and you have to make it a realistic one, because if it's not realistic, you're just going to get frustrated. Also, you make it one that, you understand you're human. So in other words, okay, every day I'm going to reflect on steam or once a week or whatever you're going to do. There's going to be times you don't do it and that's okay. And to give yourself the, the forgiveness, the self compassion, understand that self compassion doesn't mean like, Oh, that's hard. So it's okay. I don't do it. That's not self compassion because inherent in the, or compassionate self awareness inherent in that is you want what's good for you. You want to move forward. So just giving up. It is not is not a caring gesture, but understanding this is where I am and okay. I had a hard time yesterday. Maybe this thing or that thing fell apart. But what do I need now? Well, I realized that I had a hard time because I was really tired. I'm going to get myself some rest. And I'm going to make my next step forward. So you want to recognize where you are now. Have, acceptance of that as being human. You want to know what direction you want to go in. And then you want to know what is a small but reasonable step that I can make. That hopefully answers your question.

Track 1: 47:15

That is so good. And, you know, this is, going to be required reading in my house for the next month or so. I was going through the book and I just kept thinking, wow, you know, I, I have a child and I think I'm going to go through this with her as well because This would have been wonderful to read through when I was younger. It's wonderful to read through as an adult, of course. But, but

Track 3: 47:42

Right?

Track 1: 47:44

helping out those young people in our lives who are trying to figure out their way. Giving them those tools early on is something important too. So if you're listening to this and you're thinking about what you should get people for the holidays, you might want to pick up this book.

Track 3: 48:01

Thank you. You know, I may throw out there that, I have a YouTube channel. And on the YouTube channel, I have a playlist for bouncing back from rejection. My videos Almost all of them, most of them, are like three minutes, so you could totally watch it, and I go through, I, certainly an overview of the book, but like if you want to understand sensations or thoughts or any other part of STEAM, I have a video for each one of those, and just some of these concepts, so that may, if you find this interesting, may reinforce and help you to understand things even better. Uh, it's a process, it's a learning process.

Track 1: 48:34

Oh, yes. And, and the funny thing is once you learn it, then you have to practice it. So, it is a lifelong process, for sure.

Track 3: 48:44

But hopefully with time it becomes more natural. You find yourself just more aware. Takes time to get there.

Track 1: 48:51

That's right. What's on the horizon for you?

Track 3: 48:54

There's always something on the horizon, isn't there? So

Track 1: 48:57

As long as

Track 3: 48:57

I have,

Track 1: 48:58

Nice.

Track 3: 48:59

right, I have my next book coming out next summer. So we are putting the finishing touches on that. My first book I had put out was Insecure in Love and, so we are coming back around and doing the Insecure in Love workbook. So a lot of exercises for people to explore that again, it's a variation. We're talking about rejection. This is more to the insecurity, which rejection often goes with, and just finding that inner strength. The inner home, if you will.

Track 1: 49:31

That is so good and so needed right now, especially with divorce rates on the rise and all of that. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much for your time today. This has been an awesome conversation, and I'm so glad, like I said, that we're wrapping up the year with this conversation, because y'all, we've got some fun stuff on the horizon in 2024, and in 2023, I hope that we've equipped you with with plenty of tools to help you out for next year. Dr. Becker Phelps, thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing your message with us. If anyone is interested in learning more about you and everything that you're about, where should they go?

Track 3: 50:14

Uh, they can check out my website, drbeckerphelps. com, which is, it's tricky, it's, D R B E C K E R, it's a hyphen, P H E L P S dot com. Or, frankly, if you just type my name in, you're gonna get all kinds of stuff. But you can check me out there. And, oh, just because I do so much writing, that's what you find. And just, thank you. This has been a joy.

Track 1: 50:36

Yes, yes, I agree. All right, everyone. Happy New Year in advance. I know it's coming very, very soon. All right. That was great. I really enjoyed the conversation.